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September 25, 2003 Public Meeting Melody Church M I N U T E S OF THE CORPORATION OF THE MUNICIPALITY OF WEST ELGIN PUBLIC MEETING WEST ELGIN COUNCIL CHAMBERS SEPTEMBER 25, 2003 MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Duncan McPhail, Deputy Mayor Graham Warwick Councillors: Trudy Balint, Brad Bandeen, Mike Mooser STAFF PRESENT: Joanne Groch Administrator/Treasurer Norma Bryant Clerk Lorne McLeod Chief Building Official ALSO IN ATTENDANCE: Ted Halwa Planning Consultant SUBJECT: OFFICIAL PLAN AND ZONING AMENDMENT – MELODY CHURCH LOTS 18 & 19, CONCESSION XI Also in attendance: William Pol from Cumming Cockburn, Rick Gordon, Brenda Gordon plus 53 people, see sign-in sheet attached hereto as Appendix A. Mayor McPhail called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The Mayor noted that an informal information meeting has previously been held. This is an official public meeting under the Planning Act. The Clerk informed those present that notice of this meeting had been given under Section 17(15) and 34(12) of the Planning Act by prepaid first class mail to all assessed owners in Lots 18 and 19, concession 11, from Silver Clay Line to Thomson Line, as well as provincial agencies and ministries as prescribed by regulation and advertised in the Chronicle on September 4, 2003. The Clerk read correspondence from the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the Lower Thames Valley Conservation Authority, Evelyn Thody, Douglas Weaver, Jean Vanseader. William Pol, consultant for the applicants, referred to an coloured and enlarged Figure 1 (from the draft Official Plan amendment). He reported that the pond was dug for irrigation purposes some years ago and is not part of the wetland as it is man made. Regarding wetlands, he has had discussions with the Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR) and referred to a “blue line” on Figure 1 which indicates the limit of the wetlands as defined by MNR. The applicants are proposing to use the “pole barn” as a temporary church and will build a new building south of the woodlot, access will be via the present access. Mr. Pol reported that Council requested 4 issues be addressed: 1. Environmental impact – there will be no development in the wetland, all buildings will be at least 9 metres from the boundary of the wetlands, drainage is generally to the south towards the municipal drain, no trees will be removed from the woodlot, lands are zoned for agricultural uses, the site plan will protect the trees and strengthen the woodlot. 2. Consult with neighbours – The Gordons respect the desires of the neighbours, want to be good neighbours. Proposed buildings will be 170 metres from existing residential uses. You are not going to see buildings from road as existing Melody Church OPA Public Meeting September 25, 2003…..Page 2 of5 vegetation will remain, activity will primarily be inside, lighting will be directed so that it doesn’t affect neighbours. County has been contacted regarding road access and no safety issues. 3. Agricultural impact – Under MDS no farms would be impacted and as much of the land will remain in agriculture as possible. 4. Review of alternative sites – This is the preferred site for the kind of church that is being proposed. Mr. Pol reported that he felt all issues as requested by Council have been addressed. Rick Gordon noted that they have followed requests of Council and are not encroaching on the wetlands. They want to preserve what they have and are planning to stay here for a long time. Their church wants to reach out to young people. The Deputy Mayor enquired why the LTVCA had not received the environmental impact study (ELS) prepared by the consultants. The Planner reported that the report submitted was considered as a “planning report”, was not considered an ELS and therefore was not circulated. The impact of lands adjacent to the wetlands wasn’t dealt with. The Deputy Mayor questioned Mr. Pol about the septic system for the “temporary church building”, noting a 10 year use was proposed. Mr. Pol reported that no forest will be removed from wetland and they are investigating a location that would service both the temporary and new building. The Deputy Mayor noted that the septic system needs to be incorporated into the ELS. Mr. Pol noted that there is plenty of room to locate the septic system outside of the woodlot. Councillor Mooser inquired why they didn’t talk to the neighbours first. Neighbours are not in agreement. Now you build a shed and want to convert to church. Mr. Gordon responded that Mr. Weaver had sent a nasty letter to the neighbours before they could get a letter out and so they felt there was no point after that. After a couple of weeks did give a letter to neighbours. Mr. Pol noted that setbacks are being reviewed to address concerns about buffers. Councillor Bandeen noted that OMAF requests other sites be evaluated, will OMAF support when other sites are available. The Planner reported that OMAF expects the municipality to have the applicants look at alternate sites, OMAF will make their own assessment if alternative sites have been looked after an amendment is approved by the municipality. Mr. Pol noted again that this site is considered the best site for what the Gordons want to do. Councillor Balint noted the concerns regarding impact on agriculture, natural heritage and the Eagle woodlot. Ron Payne questioned where the mapping came from? Mr. Pol reported that the MNR had provided digital mapping outlining the wetland and from that it was plotted on the map. Mr. Payne noted that the previous owner, John Okolisan had received cheques for wetland and pond. The Planner noted that this was a different configuration than he had seen before. The Deputy Mayor noted that boundaries of a wetland can change from year to year. Mr. Pol noted that the line could change depending on wetness, that no change to the forest cover is proposed, that there will be no improvements to the northern boundary, development will be south of the pond. Marlene Payne noted that plaques were received in late 1970s and that pond was considered as part of wetland conservation. She noted without the Marr Drain, in wet years water would be to her back yard (Graham Road). Melody Church OPA Public Meeting September 25, 2003…..Page 3 of 5 Bill De Wilde noted that this area has been built up with nice homes, Gordons have improved the property, this is a growing community, need to make changes. He referred to a letter received from the Gordons. The Clerk read the letter from the Gordons which was titled Dear Neighbours (no date). Dan Perovich noted he lived at 25099 Silver Clay Line which abuts the property to the east. At previous meeting told that the church would need only 4-5 acres, now requesting 20 acres be designated institutional, why is that much needed. Why amend plan when don’t know what is going to be there? Mr. Gordon should have talked to the neighbours before they started, neighbourhood is not happy. My concern is with my farm and how this will affect future use. I work the land, how will they deal with ploughing, noise and dust from farming? Why 20 acres for institutional? Mr. Gordon noted that cash crops will be grown on land not needed for church. Don Beer enquired how machinery will get into farmland, trees have been removed along fence, water floods just off Graham Road, can see storage building from his home. Randy Bray noted he agreed with Don, trees have been cleared along fence line. Bonnie Grexton submitted a detailed letter outlining their reasons for opposition to rezoning, cannot support right now, premature. She questioned if an inventory of plants has been done, the woodlot is part of complex system, the smallest impact study she has seen, Graham Road is designated as an EDR, was a traffic count done, how much parking is required, how large septic is required, impact study should have been done as woodland is encroached, why 3 entrances allowed by County? Mr. Pol noted that access will be addressed in site plan, limit of wetland and woodlot is based on new information . The Clerk read letter from MNR dated September 9, 2002. Mr. Pol noted that he had contacted the County Engineer who had no objections to providing one access to site and this will be part of site plan agreement. The location of the proposed building is greater than 120 metres, there is a difference between wetland and woodlot, the distance is from the wetland, if this is an issue the new building could be moved further south. A question was put forward regarding the existing building? The Chief Building Official reported that the permit was issued for an agricultural use, no planning approval was required. Mr. Payne asked if the MNR knew that the pole barn was proposed as a church? Maybe they would have a different opinion. Mr. Pol replied that he did not know. Mr. Beer noted that the pole barn has been used on Sunday, feels being used as a church. Mr. Gordon stated that the pole barn is not being used as a church, they are renting hall at 145 Chestnut Street for church. George Van Offlemeire stated that this should have been stopped at building permit. If they lie about a building permit, what next. Julie Gray stated that there are church services in the building in the past, her dog barks. Melody Church OPA Public Meeting September 25, 2003…..Page 4 of 5 Evelyn Thody stated that in the past there have been services in their home on Wednesdays. Jason Labbee noted that he was a member of Melody Fellowship and has never been to the pond for a service, told that they could go to the pond on personal basis. Susan Peternel noted planning has to change, there is agricultural operation on Silver Clay and encroaching on agriculture whether institutional or whatever. Mr. Perovich enquired if the storage building will be permitted to be used as a church? The Mayor noted that the building was not designed for public use. Mike Peternel questioned if a precedent would be set if passed, it should be in areas where existing buildings are vacant. Rick Borowski noted that change is difficult and people need change, churches are positive for a community. Lorraine Borowski noted that she was part of Melody Fellowship, cares for community, positive influence on businesses. Councillor Mooser noted that in London a strip club was closed because the neighbours didn’t want it. Marie Webb likes farmland, moved here to retire, against application, doesn’t want to see church there. Mrs. Grexton questioned what is proposed for buffer zone, what kind of trees. Mr. DeWilde noted that the buildings must be to code. Don Watterworth questioned how MDS works? The Planner noted that institutional use would double MDS, as does existing homes. Don noted that this would protect residential from hog barn development, could look at this as protecting residential. Jeff Gray noted he had never met the Gordons, why is MNR not here, there is conflicting information. The Mayor noted that there are questions to be answered, ministry people will be consulted, another meeting will be held to report back to the residents. A decision will be made sometime, public and the applicants will have the opportunity to appeal to OMB. Daisy Wiebe reported that she travelled to this type of church in other areas, this will help our community, any growth is good, how valid are complaints about traffic and noise, hope allow building to be built. Mr. Payne noted that the 5 other properties should be looked at, should reconsider. Georgina Staddon enquired what was proposed for open area. Mr. Gordon reported that a church camp was not being proposed. Marlene Payne presented two letters to Council as well as a petition. She noted that 90% of the homeowners were opposed to proposal. Question was raised regarding using the pole barn as a church. The Chief Building Official reported that this would be considered a change of use under the Building Code Melody Church OPA Public Meeting September 25, 2003…..Page 5 of 5 Act. A structural review would be required, fire regulations, review, washrooms provided, emergency lighting, setbacks would have to be addressed in zoning. Zoning would be approved first. Mr. Pol noted his appreciation to those in attendance and comments received. The LTVCA and MNR will be consulted and plan may have to be revised. Brenda Gordon noted that they have answered Council’s questions and did see their neighbours. The Mayor enquired if there was any merit in setting up a committee (representatives from neighbours, church and council) to try and resolve the issues? No support for this idea came forth from those in attendance. Mrs. Grexton noted that institutional use should be contained to specific area otherwise expansion will be requested. The Deputy Mayor questioned whether there are no other sites available, need to make case to change for need, not for future purposes, need to consider further in order to make case to get through OMB. Carl Staddon noted that if approved the agricultural land would be land locked. The Mayor thanked those in attendance for coming. SUBJECT: ADJOURNMENT RES. NO. 1 Moved by Warwick Seconded by Bandeen RESOLVED that the public meeting concerning a proposed Official Plan Amendment Zoning By-law Amendment for land located in Part of Lot 19, Concession 11 be hereby adjourned. DISPOSITION: Carried th These minutes were adopted on this 9 day of October, 2003. ______________________________ _______________________________ MAYOR CLERK PUBLIC MEETING MINUTES TH SEPTEMBER 25, 2003 APPENDIX A – SIGN-IN LIST NAME ADDRESS Georgina Staddon R.R.#3, West Lorne Helen Okolisan West Lorne Bonnie Grexton 10182 Graham Road, West Lorne Marie Webb 10176 Graham Road, West Lorne Marie Weaver 10156 Graham Road Ron Payne 12088 Graham Road Julie Gray 10198 Graham Road Jo Anne Beer Silver Clay Line, R.R.#3, West Lorne Evelyn Thody 10301 Graham Road Jeff Gray 10198 Graham Road DGG Beer R.R.3, West Lorne L. Staddon 9678 Graham Road D. Wiebe 137 Jane Street, West Lorne D. Standish Andre Budgell 24191 Silver Clay Line William De Wilde 9916 Graham Road, West Lorne Jeanette Poisson 23392 Pioneer Line, Rodney Edward & Suzanne Smith 168 Octy Road #22, Belle River Rick, Lorraine & Ruth Borowski 192 Monroe Street, West Lorne Lionel Poisson 22392 Pioneer Line, Rodney Helen Fraser R.R.#2, Rodney Ken McEown 234 Stinson Street, Rodney Katrina Turnbull 234 Stinson Street, Rodney Tasha Tunbull 234 Stinson Street, Rodney Jason Labbee 528 St. Charles, Belle River Sandra Sample 1 Argyle St., Wallacetown Dan Perovich 25499 Silver Clay Line Jon & Vera Okolisan 10195 Graham Road Linda McCallum 10927 Graham Road Ruth Mooser 9768 Graham Road, West Lorne Randy Bray 25510 Silver Clay Line, West Lorne Carl Staddon R.R.#3, West Lorne Marlene Payne R.R.#2, West Lorne Corinne Budgell 24191 Silver Clay Line John & Don Watterworth 10657 Graham Road Michael Peternel 26079 Silver Clay Line Susan Peternel 26079 Silver Clay Line