September 25, 2003 Public Meeting Melody Church
M I N U T E S
OF THE CORPORATION OF THE
MUNICIPALITY OF WEST ELGIN
PUBLIC MEETING
WEST ELGIN COUNCIL CHAMBERS
SEPTEMBER 25, 2003
MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Duncan McPhail, Deputy Mayor Graham Warwick
Councillors: Trudy Balint, Brad Bandeen, Mike Mooser
STAFF PRESENT: Joanne Groch Administrator/Treasurer
Norma Bryant Clerk
Lorne McLeod Chief Building Official
ALSO IN ATTENDANCE:
Ted Halwa Planning Consultant
SUBJECT: OFFICIAL PLAN AND ZONING AMENDMENT – MELODY CHURCH
LOTS 18 & 19, CONCESSION XI
Also in attendance: William Pol from Cumming Cockburn, Rick Gordon, Brenda Gordon
plus 53 people, see sign-in sheet attached hereto as Appendix A.
Mayor McPhail called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The Mayor noted that an
informal information meeting has previously been held. This is an official public meeting
under the Planning Act. The Clerk informed those present that notice of this meeting
had been given under Section 17(15) and 34(12) of the Planning Act by prepaid first
class mail to all assessed owners in Lots 18 and 19, concession 11, from Silver Clay
Line to Thomson Line, as well as provincial agencies and ministries as prescribed by
regulation and advertised in the Chronicle on September 4, 2003.
The Clerk read correspondence from the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the
Lower Thames Valley Conservation Authority, Evelyn Thody, Douglas Weaver, Jean
Vanseader.
William Pol, consultant for the applicants, referred to an coloured and enlarged Figure 1
(from the draft Official Plan amendment). He reported that the pond was dug for
irrigation purposes some years ago and is not part of the wetland as it is man made.
Regarding wetlands, he has had discussions with the Ministry of Natural Resources
(MNR) and referred to a “blue line” on Figure 1 which indicates the limit of the wetlands
as defined by MNR. The applicants are proposing to use the “pole barn” as a temporary
church and will build a new building south of the woodlot, access will be via the present
access.
Mr. Pol reported that Council requested 4 issues be addressed:
1. Environmental impact – there will be no development in the wetland, all buildings
will be at least 9 metres from the boundary of the wetlands, drainage is generally
to the south towards the municipal drain, no trees will be removed from the
woodlot, lands are zoned for agricultural uses, the site plan will protect the trees
and strengthen the woodlot.
2. Consult with neighbours – The Gordons respect the desires of the neighbours,
want to be good neighbours. Proposed buildings will be 170 metres from existing
residential uses. You are not going to see buildings from road as existing
Melody Church OPA Public Meeting
September 25, 2003…..Page 2 of5
vegetation will remain, activity will primarily be inside, lighting will be directed so
that it doesn’t affect neighbours. County has been contacted regarding road
access and no safety issues.
3. Agricultural impact – Under MDS no farms would be impacted and as much of the
land will remain in agriculture as possible.
4. Review of alternative sites – This is the preferred site for the kind of church that is
being proposed.
Mr. Pol reported that he felt all issues as requested by Council have been addressed.
Rick Gordon noted that they have followed requests of Council and are not encroaching
on the wetlands. They want to preserve what they have and are planning to stay here
for a long time. Their church wants to reach out to young people.
The Deputy Mayor enquired why the LTVCA had not received the environmental impact
study (ELS) prepared by the consultants. The Planner reported that the report
submitted was considered as a “planning report”, was not considered an ELS and
therefore was not circulated. The impact of lands adjacent to the wetlands wasn’t dealt
with.
The Deputy Mayor questioned Mr. Pol about the septic system for the “temporary church
building”, noting a 10 year use was proposed. Mr. Pol reported that no forest will be
removed from wetland and they are investigating a location that would service both the
temporary and new building. The Deputy Mayor noted that the septic system needs to
be incorporated into the ELS. Mr. Pol noted that there is plenty of room to locate the
septic system outside of the woodlot.
Councillor Mooser inquired why they didn’t talk to the neighbours first. Neighbours are
not in agreement. Now you build a shed and want to convert to church. Mr. Gordon
responded that Mr. Weaver had sent a nasty letter to the neighbours before they could
get a letter out and so they felt there was no point after that. After a couple of weeks did
give a letter to neighbours. Mr. Pol noted that setbacks are being reviewed to address
concerns about buffers.
Councillor Bandeen noted that OMAF requests other sites be evaluated, will OMAF
support when other sites are available. The Planner reported that OMAF expects the
municipality to have the applicants look at alternate sites, OMAF will make their own
assessment if alternative sites have been looked after an amendment is approved by the
municipality. Mr. Pol noted again that this site is considered the best site for what the
Gordons want to do.
Councillor Balint noted the concerns regarding impact on agriculture, natural heritage
and the Eagle woodlot.
Ron Payne questioned where the mapping came from? Mr. Pol reported that the MNR
had provided digital mapping outlining the wetland and from that it was plotted on the
map.
Mr. Payne noted that the previous owner, John Okolisan had received cheques for
wetland and pond. The Planner noted that this was a different configuration than he had
seen before. The Deputy Mayor noted that boundaries of a wetland can change from
year to year. Mr. Pol noted that the line could change depending on wetness, that no
change to the forest cover is proposed, that there will be no improvements to the
northern boundary, development will be south of the pond.
Marlene Payne noted that plaques were received in late 1970s and that pond was
considered as part of wetland conservation. She noted without the Marr Drain, in wet
years water would be to her back yard (Graham Road).
Melody Church OPA Public Meeting
September 25, 2003…..Page 3 of 5
Bill De Wilde noted that this area has been built up with nice homes, Gordons have
improved the property, this is a growing community, need to make changes. He referred
to a letter received from the Gordons.
The Clerk read the letter from the Gordons which was titled Dear Neighbours (no date).
Dan Perovich noted he lived at 25099 Silver Clay Line which abuts the property to the
east. At previous meeting told that the church would need only 4-5 acres, now
requesting 20 acres be designated institutional, why is that much needed. Why amend
plan when don’t know what is going to be there? Mr. Gordon should have talked to the
neighbours before they started, neighbourhood is not happy. My concern is with my
farm and how this will affect future use. I work the land, how will they deal with
ploughing, noise and dust from farming? Why 20 acres for institutional?
Mr. Gordon noted that cash crops will be grown on land not needed for church.
Don Beer enquired how machinery will get into farmland, trees have been removed
along fence, water floods just off Graham Road, can see storage building from his home.
Randy Bray noted he agreed with Don, trees have been cleared along fence line.
Bonnie Grexton submitted a detailed letter outlining their reasons for opposition to
rezoning, cannot support right now, premature. She questioned if an inventory of plants
has been done, the woodlot is part of complex system, the smallest impact study she
has seen, Graham Road is designated as an EDR, was a traffic count done, how much
parking is required, how large septic is required, impact study should have been done as
woodland is encroached, why 3 entrances allowed by County?
Mr. Pol noted that access will be addressed in site plan, limit of wetland and woodlot is
based on new information .
The Clerk read letter from MNR dated September 9, 2002.
Mr. Pol noted that he had contacted the County Engineer who had no objections to
providing one access to site and this will be part of site plan agreement. The location of
the proposed building is greater than 120 metres, there is a difference between wetland
and woodlot, the distance is from the wetland, if this is an issue the new building could
be moved further south.
A question was put forward regarding the existing building?
The Chief Building Official reported that the permit was issued for an agricultural use, no
planning approval was required.
Mr. Payne asked if the MNR knew that the pole barn was proposed as a church? Maybe
they would have a different opinion. Mr. Pol replied that he did not know.
Mr. Beer noted that the pole barn has been used on Sunday, feels being used as a
church.
Mr. Gordon stated that the pole barn is not being used as a church, they are renting hall
at 145 Chestnut Street for church.
George Van Offlemeire stated that this should have been stopped at building permit. If
they lie about a building permit, what next.
Julie Gray stated that there are church services in the building in the past, her dog
barks.
Melody Church OPA Public Meeting
September 25, 2003…..Page 4 of 5
Evelyn Thody stated that in the past there have been services in their home on
Wednesdays.
Jason Labbee noted that he was a member of Melody Fellowship and has never been to
the pond for a service, told that they could go to the pond on personal basis.
Susan Peternel noted planning has to change, there is agricultural operation on Silver
Clay and encroaching on agriculture whether institutional or whatever.
Mr. Perovich enquired if the storage building will be permitted to be used as a church?
The Mayor noted that the building was not designed for public use.
Mike Peternel questioned if a precedent would be set if passed, it should be in areas
where existing buildings are vacant.
Rick Borowski noted that change is difficult and people need change, churches are
positive for a community.
Lorraine Borowski noted that she was part of Melody Fellowship, cares for community,
positive influence on businesses.
Councillor Mooser noted that in London a strip club was closed because the neighbours
didn’t want it.
Marie Webb likes farmland, moved here to retire, against application, doesn’t want to
see church there.
Mrs. Grexton questioned what is proposed for buffer zone, what kind of trees.
Mr. DeWilde noted that the buildings must be to code.
Don Watterworth questioned how MDS works? The Planner noted that institutional use
would double MDS, as does existing homes. Don noted that this would protect
residential from hog barn development, could look at this as protecting residential.
Jeff Gray noted he had never met the Gordons, why is MNR not here, there is conflicting
information.
The Mayor noted that there are questions to be answered, ministry people will be
consulted, another meeting will be held to report back to the residents. A decision will
be made sometime, public and the applicants will have the opportunity to appeal to
OMB.
Daisy Wiebe reported that she travelled to this type of church in other areas, this will
help our community, any growth is good, how valid are complaints about traffic and
noise, hope allow building to be built.
Mr. Payne noted that the 5 other properties should be looked at, should reconsider.
Georgina Staddon enquired what was proposed for open area. Mr. Gordon reported
that a church camp was not being proposed.
Marlene Payne presented two letters to Council as well as a petition. She noted that
90% of the homeowners were opposed to proposal.
Question was raised regarding using the pole barn as a church. The Chief Building
Official reported that this would be considered a change of use under the Building Code
Melody Church OPA Public Meeting
September 25, 2003…..Page 5 of 5
Act. A structural review would be required, fire regulations, review, washrooms
provided, emergency lighting, setbacks would have to be addressed in zoning. Zoning
would be approved first.
Mr. Pol noted his appreciation to those in attendance and comments received. The
LTVCA and MNR will be consulted and plan may have to be revised.
Brenda Gordon noted that they have answered Council’s questions and did see their
neighbours.
The Mayor enquired if there was any merit in setting up a committee (representatives
from neighbours, church and council) to try and resolve the issues? No support for this
idea came forth from those in attendance.
Mrs. Grexton noted that institutional use should be contained to specific area otherwise
expansion will be requested.
The Deputy Mayor questioned whether there are no other sites available, need to make
case to change for need, not for future purposes, need to consider further in order to
make case to get through OMB.
Carl Staddon noted that if approved the agricultural land would be land locked.
The Mayor thanked those in attendance for coming.
SUBJECT: ADJOURNMENT
RES. NO. 1 Moved by Warwick
Seconded by Bandeen
RESOLVED that the public meeting concerning a proposed Official Plan
Amendment Zoning By-law Amendment for land located in Part of Lot 19,
Concession 11 be hereby adjourned.
DISPOSITION: Carried
th
These minutes were adopted on this 9 day of October, 2003.
______________________________ _______________________________
MAYOR CLERK
PUBLIC MEETING MINUTES
TH
SEPTEMBER 25, 2003
APPENDIX A – SIGN-IN LIST
NAME ADDRESS
Georgina Staddon R.R.#3, West Lorne
Helen Okolisan West Lorne
Bonnie Grexton 10182 Graham Road, West Lorne
Marie Webb 10176 Graham Road, West Lorne
Marie Weaver 10156 Graham Road
Ron Payne 12088 Graham Road
Julie Gray 10198 Graham Road
Jo Anne Beer Silver Clay Line, R.R.#3, West Lorne
Evelyn Thody 10301 Graham Road
Jeff Gray 10198 Graham Road
DGG Beer R.R.3, West Lorne
L. Staddon 9678 Graham Road
D. Wiebe 137 Jane Street, West Lorne
D. Standish
Andre Budgell 24191 Silver Clay Line
William De Wilde 9916 Graham Road, West Lorne
Jeanette Poisson 23392 Pioneer Line, Rodney
Edward & Suzanne Smith 168 Octy Road #22, Belle River
Rick, Lorraine & Ruth Borowski 192 Monroe Street, West Lorne
Lionel Poisson 22392 Pioneer Line, Rodney
Helen Fraser R.R.#2, Rodney
Ken McEown 234 Stinson Street, Rodney
Katrina Turnbull 234 Stinson Street, Rodney
Tasha Tunbull 234 Stinson Street, Rodney
Jason Labbee 528 St. Charles, Belle River
Sandra Sample 1 Argyle St., Wallacetown
Dan Perovich 25499 Silver Clay Line
Jon & Vera Okolisan 10195 Graham Road
Linda McCallum 10927 Graham Road
Ruth Mooser 9768 Graham Road, West Lorne
Randy Bray 25510 Silver Clay Line, West Lorne
Carl Staddon R.R.#3, West Lorne
Marlene Payne R.R.#2, West Lorne
Corinne Budgell 24191 Silver Clay Line
John & Don Watterworth 10657 Graham Road
Michael Peternel 26079 Silver Clay Line
Susan Peternel 26079 Silver Clay Line